[Roksana] I am so excited to be welcoming back on my show, Jo Lee. Now some of you may remember Jo from a previous episode. Jo is an amazingly passionate lady who has her finger in so many pies. She is interested in nutritional health, so much so that she became a Nutritional Therapist a few years ago. She reinvented herself; her life; her career, all because she wants to make the world a better place. Welcome, Jo!

[Jo] Hi Roksana, thank you for having me back again.

[Roksana] You’re welcome. Tt’s a pleasure to have you. Now, last time you came on the show, you answered my one big question and you gave such a beautiful answer, I still remember it to this day. So first, Jo, I’d love to know a little bit about your back story.

[Jo] Okay, ask away.

[Roksana] Where did you grow up? What kind of childhood did you experience? What were you into?

[Jo] Well I was born in 1968, so I’m 52, and I’m saying that as I think it’s quite important to say how old I am and to explain how I sort of feel I’ve lived my life in reverse educationally. My childhood was a very traditional one, a very happy one. I have a brother, Stephen, who’s nearly three years older than I am and I was born in Cambridge. Where I grew up, we had a house outside of the main town centre with a big garden, and my childhood was just happy. I remember making mud pies. We had a  big field where the local farmer used to look after it, and we’d make houses out of hay stacks which would be totally not allowed nowadays with health and safety, but we had tunnels we used to crawl through and it’s weird because I’m so scared of spiders that it’s bizarre that I was happy in this sort of situation with those probably hundreds of spiders all around. And we had a little stream in the farmer’s next field. We used to walk down there with a bucket and fishing net on our own in those days, as fairly young children, and we’d catch minnows in the stream. And I can remember this clearly, under a sort of a road, a little bridge, and there was this little stream. We went back many years later. We took my children there but it was quite overgrown, but we’d catch a bucket of minnows and then let them all go and then walk home.

[Roksana] Aw, it sounds fun!

[Jo] Yeah, I just remember the freedom that we had as children then and it was wonderful. I mean some days we played board games. Monopoly – often it would end up in the air as someone would lose their temper -, things like Kerplunk and Buckaroo. And yeah, it was joyous, actually. My parents created a very happy space for us children. They were quite protective though so they probably would be more worried and more concerned at keeping us safe than I am as a parent. I think it’s quite interesting for me to notice how I’m different with my children- not that I’m not concerned about their safety, but I sort of feel that they need the freedom and the courage to get out there and explore, make mistakes, and I never encourage them to regard themselves as victims if something happens. It’s about being really empowered as I’ve said before, but yeah my childhood was good. It was happy, supportive, had a nice time at school with nice friends. I think there was a phase probably in my teens where I didn’t quite fit in at school. My parents were more restrictive about where I could go, how late I can stay out, and I think that made me feel a little bit isolated at school. I do remember a few times spending my lunch hour in the toilets wanting it to go faster but otherwise, despite that, I mean I was a swat. I loved working I love studying, and probably for a lot of my life that idea of having to get everything perfect was a bit of a limiting factor for me, and that’s mostly and probably for a lot of my life that idea of having to get everything perfect a factor for me, but thankfully that’s mostly passed now.

[Roksana] You said at the beginning that you lived your life in reverse a little. What did you mean by that?

[Jo] Well, I married very young for today sort of ages. I married when I was 21. What had happened was, I went to University after finishing school at 18. I went to Leeds University, started a course which was I think French, Spanish, and Management Studies and I just didn’t really like it and so I left. Made the decision to leave. Did a bilingual secretarial course, intensive, in Cambridge and was lucky to be headhunted for working at an American investment bank in London and there I met my first husband and we married. I was just 21, and then we moved to Bahrain with his job and had two children. Tasha was nine months when we went out to Bahrain and Ben was born in Bahrain later. So I then became, which I loved, I mean I was very keen to have children, but I became this sort of probably stereotypical housewife. Very focused on my children and I acknowledge that I was so privileged to have the chance to stay at home and be with them. Obviously in the Middle East I had a lot of support in the house, so I could really enjoy my children without a lot of the financial worries and physical sort of load of the housework that people typically have, so I’m forever grateful for that because my children and I really benefited. It’s a luxury that not everybody has. So that continued for quite a while and it wasn’t until after I got divorced, I think I was around 36, and then back in England with the two children and they were in school in England, that things you know obviously started to change. But even then, I still wasn’t studying and I started off actually doing a History degree with Open University. I did a modular year so it took me 6 years, but I was so thrilled I got the degree I wanted and I can still remember to this day getting my results in an email and I actually burst into tears because of the hard work and time that went into it. My family would attest to those days when I’m at the desk and you’re almost crying because you don’t know what you’ve got to try and do with this essay question. I loved it. For me it was such a key thing because I think I’ve been judged so much, especially in my early years in being a mum and also being a second wife to my first husband there were certain sort of cliches that people labelled you with. Subconsciously I think that does affect you because you always feel you have to prove yourself. I think nowadays, society values mums – stay at home mums, mums who are working, we’re all embraced. There’s no judgement and there shouldn’t be. We all do the best we can and you know I think if I had my time again, I’d like to have worked as a mum when my children were young, even if it was only one or two days a week because I think working mums, whether you have to work or you choose to work, it’s such an important role model to see us out there doing things, outside of being a wife, a mother, a friend. It’s doing something for us which I think it can be neglected.

[Roksana] You’re absolutely right. I just want to tell you, Jo, about a little story about something that happened to me. So I was working from the age of 16 and I’d worked pretty much every day or every other day from the age of 16 alongside my College and my University, and I graduated at 21 and got a job straight away. I was lucky. I worked all my life and when I had my first daughter, I went back to work four days a week so not completely full time, but you know unfortunately, you end up doing the whole weeks work in those three or four days. And when I had my son, I went back to work but then I very quickly realised that I can’t reconcile the two lives, like I can’t work in that way and be a mum. And it was so interesting, a few years ago I asked my son, “What do mummies do?” And he said, “They watch TV.” Can you imagine the kick in the teeth to me? I just felt like, “Wow, this boy thinks that all mummies do is have the TV on in the background and run around picking up laundry and that sort of thing.” I know a lot of mums do do that (my mum did that, she was a stay at home mum), but for me I just felt like I was so much more than that and you have no idea who I am. For me it was that moment I thought like, “What is it that I want to do?” We need to figure this out because I can’t have my children thinking that that’s all mummies can do.

[Jo] I mean I can imagine how that would have felt given everything you had actually done. But for me it’s about embracing everybody’s decisions, isn’t it? I was very happy to be a stay at home mum for most of my children’s early years- in fact right up until they were teenagers, and I loved it and I think it’s about giving everybody credit for what we choose to do. Whether we have to, or we do it through choice, and I think also it’s about giving girls and women the same opportunity to do things and not to feel that there’s things they can’t try and to just go for it.  I think that’ s so important so I can understand why you like to change your son’s view of the fact that yeah, the TV can be on, but in fact there’s more to mum than just the mum stuff that he sees around the home. I think it’s, yeah, it’s very important.

[Roksana] Well, it certainly was a defining moment for me where I thought, “This needs to change. I can’t let him think that this is all mummies are capable of doing,” because I think it was his worldview of what mummies do, and I felt like I needed to help influence that narrative in his mind.

[Jo] Well, you’ve certainly done that, which is amazing.

[Roksana] Bless you, thank you. Jo, that was such a lovely little tour of your history. It sounds like you’ve had quite a magical childhood and I think that that in itself should be celebrated. Your parents sound amazing. t sounds like you’ve been in a family where relationships and connection is valued. It’s something for today’s generation to really think about how we can create that and I think those kind of components that come together to create those conditions for inclusion and connection and loving are so important. I feel like sometimes it’s just so hard to grasp those for various different factors, but I love that you’ve had that experience.

[Jo] I think it was definitely a fundamental part of making me who I am today and my parents continue to be really supportive as does my family. My daughter, my son, my husband, the extended family. But I think also in today’s sort of social media age, I think it’s very easy for people to shut down other people’s opinions. There’s a famous quote, I’m not going to be able to quote verbatim, but it’s “I defend your right to have a different opinion to mine.” And I think that’s always important because if we truly listen to someone and their opinion is valid, we might not believe it we might consider it to be racist or any other -ism, but we have to accept that people have different opinions to us so we don’t have to be aggressive. We don’t have to shut people down. I think that’s important. I think doing the University degree really helped me think about the way I process information. I’m not saying I get it right all the time, far from it, but it just helps you think a little bit differently and look outside of the box. Yeah it was certainly my upbringing and the education I’ve been lucky enough to have that’s really helped, and also friends, listening to other people, really shaped and changed everything.

[Roksana] Now Jo, you’ve recently trained as a Nutritional Therapist. Take me back to the moment you had that desire. What triggered you? What made you think, “this is something I want to get into”?

[Jo] I can remember very clearly it was while I was doing my history degree in the final year, and I started to suffer from a very painful back with severe sciatica going right down into my ankle and I got a metal ring round it. Eventually went to the GP and had steroid injections which gave me relief but didn’t really make a big difference, and somebody I knew mentioned Jason Vale and his juicing retreats and books. Started off juicing and I actually went to one of his retreats in Portugal which I loved, but then just generally I started looking at food and thinking about the impact. I’ve never eaten a really poor diet. I have a very sweet tooth which is something from my childhood; from baking with my grandmother, to cupboards full of Easter eggs and stuff, and chocolates on a Sunday after a Sunday walk. So you sort of grow up with that sweet reward driven into you, but it was at that point that I realised that by reducing the amount of sugar I ate and looking at my diet and making changes, I actually started to feel a lot better and also holistically looking at the whole body. So I started having acupuncture from this fantastic lady who lives not far from me where she practises from her home. In fact, her house is near a Church, and the consultant actually calls her the “nearest thing to God” with the pain because of her proximity to the Church and her ability. So it was at that point that I then saw the impact it was having on me. I watched a couple of documentaries and that’s when I started to do research about which course I wanted to do and came across CNM, which is the College of Naturopathic Medicine, so I went to meet someone from the college to see what it entailed and found out that it was a three year course and I signed up straight away. I paid in full for the three years because I was determined to see it through, but it was a tough course. It’s very demanding. I mean the people on my in my class were amazing and we really supported each other through it, but it was three very tough years.

[Roksana] Was it tough in the sense of the content, the subject matter, or the time commitment? Or all of those things?

[Jo] Everything. Everything in a nutshell. We only had to attend college itself once a week. We had lectures from 9 or 10 till 6, but that’s a long time of lectures, and we used to have guides from each and then when you got home you then have to go through all of that. Read a lot deeper, do lots of research. The first year was Bio-Medicine so you’re learning about the body itself, basically all the systems in the body. The nervous system, the muscular system, the cardiovascular system, the immune system; everything in detail and it’s almost what doctors are learning. When you look back it seemed relatively easy when you had gone into the second year when we were really going deep into the conditions of nutritional therapeutic support, and then in the third year we were seeing clients. In second year, we witnessed our lecturers having clients and we were serving them so you’re constantly exposed to genuine cases in a clinic. So by the end of our course we each had over 300 hours of clinical experience which is such an incredible asset to have and we had exams throughout. We had loads of essays to write, we had to prep our clients coming in and then in the final year, we each have to see at least three clients. We had to see them for an initial consultation and a follow up, and you’ll be seeing their client with four or five of your peers behind the client watching you, and also your supervisor watching you, so the pressure was huge and the adrenaline rush was insane, especially for the first one or two. It was a fantastic experience and I’m so grateful that we had this education because you feel much more competent now setting up your own clinic that actually, you lose that feeling of the Impostor Syndrome where you constantly feel you don’t know enough. Because obviously knowledge is changing about this area all the time, and you have to keep learning and keep your continuous professional development going, so we’re constantly up to date. I love that. I love the fact that we keep learning and I still feel like I’m at college though I’m practising, but it’s so satisfying. So satisfying. But I think it’s taken me probably 6 – 9 months to recover from the sort of demands of the learning, probably I found it even harder than my degree in terms of workload.

[Roksana] The intensity. It sounds very intense. So do you think that for anybody else who’s listening in and thinking that they’d like to take on a course similar to the one that you did, or anything else, that are there any tips that you can suggest to them to help them A: Make a decision about whether it’s right  for them to do, and B: How to get through those intense periods of time

[Jo] Okay well starting off by people considering doing something similar. Despite what I’ve just said, I would definitely go for it. The college that I attended, CNM, they do short courses at different places around the country. I think they’re mainly centred in London but I attended one of the other schools in Brighton and there’s also Bristol and I’m sure there’s some others as well. I can’t recall the locations but you could look at their website and look at their short courses and attend one of those and get a feel. Another great college is ION (Institute for Optimum Nutrition). They’re based in London so they do amazing work, you can attend and get a feel for what it would be like and also you know people can contact me and ask any questions. I’d be more than happy to answer questions about it. And then I think it’s just about really enjoying what you’re learning and if you’re passionate about it. It is hard but you get such a kick out of learning it. A lot of people do it not to even open a clinic, they just do it because they have a health condition that they want to get on top of or they want to be able to support their family’s health. I often think to myself, my goodness if I’d done this -my only regret is not having found this passion, this interest, when I was younger, because if I was in my 20s doing it I would be feeling like I was on fire because I have this knowledge for the rest of my life and for my children. Amazing. And the course, also, we had people who were 18 years old up til, I was probably one of the old ones, but you know into their 50s so that made it great because everyone brought something different to the table. Lots of people were working in full time jobs, part time jobs or with children and I mean, my children are all grown up, but I take my hat off to all my peers who did it with full time jobs and children because they were incredible. But we all did it, and it’s a very supportive community. I think that’s the most exciting thing about it is that, obviously, when you set up clinic, you’d think there’d be lots of competition, but in fact people are very supportive and during college is the same. We were all in it together, getting each other through this. If you felt down because it was a tough week for you, or other things will happen in your life, there was always someone in our group to lift us up.

[Roksana] It sounds like a sisterhood!

[Jo] It’s about finding your tribe and these girls that I studied with were amazing and I remember when I graduated, I put a post on Instagram with some pictures of us as our graduation was in fact earlier this year, even though we qualified last year. And I said, you know, these people are out there waiting to help you: go find them because they won’t let you down. And I firmly believe that. They are just so inspirational. Some are specialised, some aren’t, but it’s really for me about people out there that need help. It’s about finding the Nutritional Therapist that suits them because everyone is different. You have to build a personal relationship, you have to trust your Nutritional Therapist.

[Roksana] Jo, fantastic. Tell me something; what is your greatest achievement to date? What do you love most about your life right now?

[Jo] I love having my clinic. I love it love it love it, but I mean, it’s going to sound very corny but my children- sorry I’m getting emotional.

[Roksana] Aw, bless you.

[Jo] I’m so proud of them.

[Roksana] You’re a proud Mama!

[Jo] Ultimately, sorry this is crazy, but yeah my kids. I’m very proud of both of them because, yeah, they’re just very, very special to me. Sorry, I didn’t think I’d get so emotional about that, sorry.

[Roksana] No, please don’t be sorry. It’s beautiful. I can feel your love gushing.

[Jo] Everyone’s probably reaching for the vomit bucket but no, honestly I’ve got myself together now. No, in all genuineness I think it’s my children because I’m very proud of them as people for who they are. Not so much what they’ve achieved, though they’ve both achieved great things, I think it’s just about them as people, and you know my relationship with them. That’s what I’m probably most proud of. Everything else is important to me but not as important as that, so yeah, sorry, get the Kleenex.

[Roksana] And Jo, you know I think what’s remarkable here is that you’ve made that happen. You’ve been the guiding force in their life that’s helped to shape and create a condition for you three to be so connected, to be able to be there for each other in the way that you are, and I think that we should celebrate you for a minute and just look at what it is that you think you have done or established, maybe not knowingly but what do you think, if you could put your finger on it, what you think it is that you’ve been able to do to create that condition?

[Jo] I honestly don’t know the answer to that. I don’t want everyone to think that I’m a perfect mum because I’m sure, I mean, I know that I’ve lost my temper and done crazy stuff and not always done the right thing, but I think again- my friend always used to say to me, “Good people do bad things,” and that’s always something to remember. We need to forgive ourselves when we’ve had lapses or made decisions that happen to not always being the greatest but I think it’s trying to trying to be honest and just allowing my children the space to talk to me and of course we have rows, of course we fall out, I just think it’s about giving them the freedom to explore who they are and trying not to judge and I know that it’s easy to step in all the time and try and help them by trying if I catch myself doing that or catch myself commenting in a negative way which I have done sometimes, I try and catch myself and stop myself from doing that because they don’t need us to point out what they haven’t done. I try now more to celebrate what they have done, whether it’s keeping their flat clean or making a dentist appointment, rather than constantly reminding them and that is something I’ve struggled with. You know that tendency of over thinking for your children we want to protect them but it is stepping back and that’s not always easy for mums and dads you know. You want our children to be safe but I think we have to let them grow at their own pace. But no, I think they’ve given so much to me. I feel very grateful that I’ve had two such lovely children and I’m sure my ex husband would join me in that in that we’re exceptionally lucky. They’re great, obviously everyone, we love our children, don’t we?

[Roksana] We do, we do indeed. I’m just loving how much love you have for your children and how you’re able to express it in such an articulate way. I think you know, giving them space and time to explore who they are I think it’s you make it sound so easy, and I think for a lot of parents that’s a really difficult thing to do because you’re trying to become rounded people but then we all have our own biases on what that should look like, and to be able to take a moment and just step back and say, “You know I need to just back off a little bit here and let them explore who they want to be,” even though you might see them making mistakes or being hurt through that process. It takes a lot of self restraint and I commend you for that.

[Jo] The thing is whatever we do I’m sure if you were asking my children questions about me that they’d see it from a different perspective and I think it’s important for us to accept that we all do the best we can with what we have and that we’re enough as we are so with my kids.

[Roksana] That’s beautiful, that we’re enough as we are.

[Jo] I think it’s about accepting that we have, as you said, we have our own baggage don’t we? Things that happened in our childhood affects how we are. We might do things completely differently, we might be more restrictive, might be more liberal, it is all our own history and we can’t help that. That’s just part of us so we can acknowledge things, we can see patterns but we’re just all trying to do the best and then there’s a beautiful quote. I can’t remember who said it, but it is basically “We’re all walking each other home,” and I love that expression. I think it’s quite haunting but I think it’s just not for family but also for people we need. It is that we’re all on this journey to home wherever you feel that is. Heaven, a second life, but it’s that journey home and if we can make that journey supportive and full of love especially like now, we’re seeing an outpour of generosity of people and support. That’s just so uplifting and so empowering for all of us. I think a lot of my friends, when you talk to them nowadays that they were going through this sort of emotional rollercoaster and you know in fear sometimes because of media coverage and trying to refocus on the stuff that actually is positive for people that are recovering. All the generosity, the sharing, the caring, it’s just finding that balance, isn’t it?

[Roksana] It is. Jo, tell me what took you the longest to learn to accept about yourself.

[Jo] Oh well I know the answer: that I don’t have to get everything perfect. That’s definitely something that has taken me a long time. I think it stems from when I was around 10. I was at a convent school actually and all our subjects were graded from the first, to I think there was about 19 of us in the class. For every exam we did we had grades listing all our achievements from top to bottom, so you can imagine it was a lot of pressure. I don’t think they do it nowadays but I had a friend who was extremely clever and she always used to come first and I used to be the 2nd or 3rd and then I think one year, I don’t know what happened. I came fifth or tenth overall in the class and I think it was such a shock and I think I remember being lost you know, what went wrong? And I think that stuck in my head, and it wasn’t said with any spite or anything, but in my head and ever since then I always wanted to get things perfect so I did strive for it. And I probably didn’t appreciate it at the time but  it was a lot of stress, always trying to always get things right and if someone didn’t like me for some reason that then I would struggle with that. It would be a real, “Oh my God, why don’t they like me, what have I done?” and I’d feel guilty very quickly even if I hadn’t done something wrong, I’d think I had and now I’m lucky at this place where if someone doesn’t like me and people aren’t going to like me for whatever reason big or small-

[Roksana] I wouldn’t know why, but carry on.

[Jo] But it’s okay. It really is OK and I look back to when we met I mean, what a lovely sort of serendipity that was.

[Roksana] Yeah, we could tell our listeners about that actually, how we met.

[Jo] Do you want to do that?

[Roksana] You can, you can.

[Jo] We were members of an online cooking group; a sort of Yotam Ottolenghi appreciation group, and we ended up arranging there was about six of us. We met at Nopi the restaurant, and we had a lovely dinner and chatted together and that was how we met. And then we became Facebook friends, as you do and kept in touch, and ever since that was quite a long time ago now wasn’t it

[Roksana] Ooh, I wanna say about six years ago.

[Jo] That’s what I was thinking. No doubt Facebook Memories will remind us. And it’s things like that, those connections with like-minded people, whether it’s food or travel, they’re fascinating and I love it because I’ve met so many people that I would never have met and actually physically meeting them as well has been really special.

[Roksana] I agree and I really wish I could find some time to cook more Yotam food in my life.

[Jo] It is delicious.

[Roksana] It’s amazing, it’s the best food on the planet in my opinion, but it takes about a day to make.

[Jo] Well, have you looked at his simple book?

[Roksana] I haven’t, no.

[Jo] It’s one you’ll want to checkout.

[Roksana] Okay I will check it out for sure.

[Jo] As the title says, less ingredients and very quick but still tasty.

[Roksana] Perfect. Jo, if you could go back in time and whisper a little life lesson or an affirmation to the girl, what would you say to her?

[Jo] I would definitely say it doesn’t have to be perfect and also one of the main things is, have a goal, have a dream but don’t become so fixated on that dream that you don’t notice other opportunities along the journey. They’re the two things that I would say.

[Roksana] Perfect. Oh, Jo I could talk to you all day. All your stories are beautiful, and I’m still kind of imagining your enchanted childhood and how you played with your brother and had this loving connection with your family, and I can see how you carried that through your life and instilled it into your own home with your own children and I can see how that radiates to everybody that you come into contact with and even the way you speak of your experiences of being around people. I think that you’re one of those people in life who manages to somehow without even trying, creates a community around her and I think that may well be the key to your success.

[Jo] Oh thank you Roksana, that’s really sweet. I hope so. I mean it’s important. I think community is going to be important to all of us, especially now, and I like to think that this experience were all going through will really help cement those communities and that feeling that we’re all going through now will linger a lot longer than the virus.

[Roksana] I hope so. I’m sure. I’m certain of it. If my listeners want to know more about you Jo, if they want to tap into your nutritional therapy or just hook up with you and hear all of these good loving vibes from you, where should they go?

[Jo] Well it’s easy to contact me through my email which will be on my website which I think you have the details of.

[Roksana] Yes I will add all your details to the show notes.

[Jo] And I also have Facebook with the Vital Life Nutrition when I’ve been posting a few videos of me doing some cooking recently, and also Instagram where I share some recipes and ideas so they’re the main venues that they can contact me through. But yeah I’d love to hear from people and help them if they need nutritional therapy because it’s a lot more than just diets. It is diving deep and also lots of functional testing which can really help get to the bottom especially with chronic illness and just to say to people that might be listening, but it’s not something that you do either or, it works well alongside orthodox medicine so it’s just essential, it’s so basic to me. It’s a bit like you don’t put the wrong fuel in your car, you’re gonna make sure your car is the oil is the right level, it’s about balance in the body, helping your body maintain optimal health and vitality. It’s not just not being ill, it’s about that optimal stage of being.

[Roksana] I think thanks to people like yourself Jo, I think the conversation around fuel and food as fuel is much more higher up in people’s minds now and I’m so pleased for that because I think when I was growing up there wasn’t a lot of information about what foods you should and shouldn’t eat and I think my parents didn’t really understand either. I think that I kind of have in my 20s and 30s due to having various conditions like IBS, have had to learn to eat the right foods in the right amounts and also supplement where I need to and that’s only come because I’ve been in contact with people who offer nutritional therapeutic advice and guidance and I think what you do and what your colleagues do is amazing.

[Jo] I think it’s great that there’s so many people out there with the knowledge and my only advice is that I would whenever you’re checking for a Nutritional Therapist or anyone, always look at their registering bodies and get someone who is registered and insured because then you’re protected and I think it’s important because there’s so much conflicting advice out there about different diets. This is good for you one day, it’s bad for you the next, and obviously it does change. We can only operate on what we know now, but it’s very important you are getting good advice from someone that is registered and insured for your own safety.

[Roksana] Thank you that’s absolutely right. Anyone who’s listening right now, if you want to know more about Jo go to the show notes and you will be able to find her website her Facebook handles and social media handles and we will pop her email address from there too so please ask her any questions. She’s here to guide, advise, and please tap into her expertise. Thank you Jo, thank you so much for your time today.

[Jo] No thank you very much I really enjoy chatting with you. It’s been great fun.